Sunday, October 14, 2012

How To Talk To A Muslim: Debating The Existence Of Allah, The Validity Of The Qur'an, & Evolution

Further seizing upon the opportunity to debate with a conservative Muslim, who stands for just about everything I am against, I challenge him on some of the Qur'an's known contradictions using a section from The "Infidel's" Guide to Islam. It all started when Gareth linked his post titled "There is a god, and His name is Allah (My personal gift to Atheists & Anti-Theists)" on the Non Believer Nation Facebook page. I read it and took it upon myself to inject some more intellectual critique, rather than just the usual hyperbole. In his post the argument is made that in the Qur'an, Mohammad gives information about things that were not scientifically known at that time, and could only have been known if this information had been revealed to him by Allah. The "revelation" in question here is a vague line in the Qur'an mentioning that iron was given from above and descended to Earth.

“We have descended Iron, within it contains great durability, as well as benefits for Humans.” Surah 57:25

This is offered as the "proof" that Allah is the one true god and that Islam is the one true faith. As you can easily imagine, I call out this naivety for what it is: bullshit. There were many other comments on the post, some congratulating, some critical, and so I decided to weigh my two cents in so that the anti-theist perspective could be heard. What ensued was a very heated exchange between me and Gareth where I pointed out the contradictions in the Qur'an to make the argument that it is far from revealed wisdom. His only rebuttal when cornered with these apparent facts, is to say that all of my English translations are incorrect, even through I have several of the most popular English-translated Qur'ans.

I ask him for the correct translation directly from Arabic and to include references, but he doesn't reply. About halfway through we get into debating the validity of evolution, which he denies, insisting that the Qur'anic retelling of the Adam and Eve creation myth is how it all happened because "Allah says that it happened, period." So I introduce him to some of the evidence in favor of evolution and he seems to concede, although not admitting it, and retracts back into his talking points, insisting that Allah is all powerful and that I only disbelieve in him because I want to worship my "ego & desires". I close by trying to make amends, in a way, to see how best people like him and me can coexist in the long term. Our debate and the link to his blog are below. His words are in bold.


"There is a god, and His name is Allah (My personal gift to Atheists & Anti-Theists):
http://garethbryant.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/thereisagodandhisnameisallahmypersonalgifttoatheistsantitheists/#comment-17394

ME:
Look man, as an atheist and anti-theist, I do respect your right to have your own opinion and to be vocal about it. After all, I hope that you, as I do, respect freedom of speech going both ways. I just can’t wait until the Muslim majority countries practice this.
Over the years I’ve had a few Muslims try to point to some vague references in the Qur’an that when twisted, accurately describe science. But you must be aware, that for skeptics like us, such vague references will never be enough, because all religious books have some truth to them, and they can’t all be correct in their entirety.
On top of that, all religious books are full of scientific and historic inaccuracies, which would of course defeat your objective since your holy book must be perfect. There is no religious text, that accurately describes the universe as science does, because of course no one writing them knew anything about science. You must be aware that the Qur’an contradicts itself many times. How do you reconcile this when the Qur’an is supposed to be absolutely perfect in every way?
If you don’t know what I mean check for yourself in these verses below, in this small sample I have:
Have some passages in the Qur’an been changed?
Yes – 2:106; 16:101
No – 6:34; 6:115; 10:64; 18:27
How many angels spoke to Mary?
One – 19:16-19
More than one – 3:42; 3:45
How long is Allah’s day?
1000 years – 22;47; 32:5
50,000 years – 70:4
Who chooses the devil to be friends with unbelievers?
Allah chooses – 7:27
The disbelievers choose – 7:30
Was the Pharaoh drowned or saved?
Drowned – 17:102-103; 28:40; 43:55
Saved – 10:90-92
Will all Jews and Christians go to hell?
Yes – 3:85; 5:72
No – 2:62; 5:69
Did Mohammad ask for a fee?
Yes – 2:195; 8:41; 9:103; 9:111; 47:38; 57:10
No – 12:104; 36:21; 42:23; 52;40; 68:46
How should Jews and Christians be treated?
With tolerance – 2:109
With war – 9:29
Which came first heaven or Earth?
Heaven – 79:27-30
Earth – 2:29; 41:9-12
Will Allah forgive anything?
Yes, anyone and anything – 4:110; 39:153
No some people and things will never be – 4:48; 4:116; 4:137; 4;168; 9:80; 47;34; 63:3-6
How many angels fought Mohammad?
3000 – 3:124-126
1000 – 8:9-10
Is each person free to believe as he or she wishes?
Yes – 2:256; 18:29; 109:6
No – 3:32; 30:45; 18:29; 3:85; 3:28; 4:89; 4:144; 5:51; 60:1
How long did it take to create the heavens and the Earth?
6 days – 7:54; 10:3; 11;7; 50:38; 57:4
8days – 41:9-12
What was man created from?
Water – 25:54; 24:45
A clot of blood – 96:1-2
Clay – 15:26; 32:7; 38:71
Dust – 30:20; 35:11
Is Allah merciful?
Yes – 1:1-3; 1:163; 2:37; 2:54; 2:128; 2:143; 2:160; 2:173; 2:182; 2:192; 2:218
No – 2:7; 2:17; 4;56; 4:168-9; 5:33; 7:50
Does Allah make distinctions between his messengers?
Yes – 2:253
No – 2:285
Who was the first Muslim?
Abraham/Jacob – 2:132
Moses – 7:143
Mohammad – 39:12
Did one of Noah’s sons die in the flood?
Yes – 11:42-43
No -21: 76; 37:75-77
Does everything on heaven and Earth obey Allah?
Yes – 30:26
No- 2:34
GB:
Each & every single verse of that you’ve mentioned from the Qur’an is mistranslated and/or taken completely out of context.
For example:
1. There have in fact been verses of the Qur’an have been abrogated either by other verses in the Qur’an itself, abrogated in terms of the text itself (replaced with other verses) or abrogations of either ordinances & prohibitions in particular verses by other verses, or even by actions of Muhammad (Peace be upon him)…so what?!!! Allah specifically tells us, “Whatever the Messenger gives you, you accept it, and whatever he forbids, refrain from it.”.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.59, V.7)
2. You’ve mentioned about the amount of Angels who came to Mary (Peace be upon her). Well, there was more than one instance that she was visited by Angels, which is evident in the very verses that you’ve mentioned; so, there ya go.
3. Referring to the divine position of time, the way that Allah measures time cannot be estimated by anyone or anything created. And, Allah has just chosen to use examples of that, in the verses that you’ve mentioned.
4. When you’ve mentioned about the Devil being the friends of the Disbelievers, it’s referring to what Allah decrees & also the decisions which Humans themselves make. So, yeah, in reference to the Devil, Allah does decree people to follow & befriend him, and also, these people make choices, based upon volition, to follow & befriend him, which is mentioned in the verses which you’ve mentioned.
5. Referring to the verses from Chpt. 10, V.90-92, when it comes to verse 92, it’s exclusively referring to the preservation of the body of the Pharaoh, who pursued the Children of Israel, with his army & was drowned.
6. When it comes to the Jews & Christians going to Hell, then, yes…if the Jews & Christians who associate false qualities to Allah, and don’t follow the true teachings of their books, and who don’t accept the guidance that Allah has given to Muhammad (Peace be upon him), yes…they will go to Hell, forever…this is what Allah says, in the Qur’an…so what?!!!
7. The verses that you’ve mentioned when it comes to a “fee”, Muhammad never requested or demanded a “fee”. These verse are explicitly referring to the allowances of the spoils of war…so what?!!!
8. Referring to how the Jews & Christians should be treated are very relative to how they interact with the Muslims. In times of peace or weakness, we’re required to treat Jews & Christians a certain way; however, in times of military-conflict or when the Muslims have authority, we’re required to treat Jews & Christians a certain way…so what?!!!
9. The Heavens definitely came before the Earth, and just the Earth is mentioned in some verses first, as opposed to the Heavens, doesn’t mean that Allah is in error.
10. As far as the forgiveness of Allah, He does say that He forgives all. But, His forgiveness has to be earned. And, if someone dies upon associating false qualities to Allah and/or worshipping other than Him, or is carelessly, shamelessly, rebelliously, disobedient to Him, then, that person doesn’t deserve the forgiveness of Allah.
11. Referring to the groups of Angels who fought with Muhammad (Peace be upon him) & the Muslims, during the battles, against the enemies of Islam, there’s two different instances, where the Angels of Allah has helped the armies of the Muslims…so what?!!!
12. As far as the power of choice goes, yes people definitely have the choice to obey or disobey Allah. But, they don’t have the right to do so, there’s a distinct difference between a choice & a right: Choices are just biased, personal decisions, while rights are things which are divinely sanctioned & justified.
13. As far as the number of days that Allah says that it took to create the Universe, who cares which days He says, the pint is that He says that He did it.
14. Allah never says that He created Humans from water nor (blood) clots…total mistranslation of the text of the Qur’an. And, I know this personally, for a fact, because I’ve studied the Qur’an via the Arabic-Language & I’ve studied the Arabic-Language for over a decade now; Allah does mention how He perpetually creates Humans (as well as living-creatures, such as Avians, Reptiles, Amphibians, Mammals, etc.) from sexual, seminal, fluids (Sperm), and from Fallopian-Eggs/Ovum. And, referring to the other substances that Allah speaks about (such as dust, soil, clay, dirt, etc.), He’s exclusively referring to the initial creation of Adam (Peace be upon him).
15. Allah’s mercy is just like He is: Eternal, unlimited, etc. However, just like His forgiveness, His mercy has conditions, the same conditions which are necessary to receive Allah’s forgiveness are the same conditions required to receive Allah’s mercy.
16. When Allah says that He doesn’t make distinctions & commands us to not make distinctions between His Messengers (those whom were chosen to be recipients of textual-revelation from Allah, as scriptures, books, etc.), He’s making the point that created things (Humans particularly) don’t posses the entitlement to say which of the Messengers (Peace be upon them all-together) are better than the others. However, Allah is divinely entitled to determine that, and He does, really simple.
17. Allah makes it very clear, in the Qur’an, who the first (Human) Muslim is, and he is none other than the Father of Humanity, Adam (Peace be upon him). And, this is based upon two things: 1. The definition of Islam is: Submission to Allah via Tawhid (Islamic-Monotheism), to humble one’s self via obedience, and to free one’s self from Shirk (Association of false-qualities to Allah), as well as those who do so, 2. By virtue of the fact that Allah had commissioned the Human being to be Khulafa’ (custodians) over the Earth, it’s only natural that the first from among Human beings would obey Allah & worship Him properly. So, ergo, Adam (Peace be upon him) was in fact the first Muslim.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.2, V.30-33)
18. regards to your claim that one of Noah’s sons died in the flood, the verses that you’ve mentioned doesn’t at all refute the fact that one of Noah’s sons did in fact perish in the flood. In fact, they’re referring to the other three sons of Noah, who had survived with Noah, as a result of obeying Allah, then, obeying their father a Prophet & Messenger, by accompanying him upon the ark.
19. When Allah mentions that everything upon the Earth obeys Him, He’s exclusively referring to created things which do not have free-will, the choice to either obey or disobey, freely, based exclusively upon volition. And, when Allah mentions created things which do not obey Him, He’s exclusively referring to created things (like Human beings, etc.) which have free-will.
So, basically, you’ve proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don’t know a damned thing about Islam.
ME:
There are too many contradictions that I pointed out for me to reference all here so let me just focus on a few. In number 1, I’m well aware of the abrogations in the Qur’an whereby old commandments are cancelled by newer ones. But what I get from this is that Mohammad was simply just making it up on the fly, or he was probably an epileptic who simply forgot what he previously had said. Even if I am wrong, the notion that major ideas of morality can simply be overwritten by newer commandments shows you that in Islam, in particular, morality is completely dependent on divine will, and could change at any moment. Divine command theory on morality is really sad way to base your ideas of right and wrong.
Now, surah 6:115 says “none can change his words: for He is the one who hears and knows all”. If Mohammad abrogated previous commandments, that would technically qualify as changing words. Either that or your god seems to make up morality of the fly.
For number 17, the Qur’an mentions Adam, but modern history, human archeology and genetics shows there was no original “Adam”. Humans evolved about 100,000 to 250,000 years ago in East Africa. And if you don’t know this you don’t know anything about science. So the Qur’an is wrong there too.
For number 13, you say who cares how many days the Qur’an says it took Allah to allegedly create the Earth? Excuse me? I care. Muslims claim that they have a book that is absolutely in every possible singe way 100 percent completely accurate because it is the verbatim word of god. If ONE THING is wrong in it, that cancels the whole book, because a perfect god can’t make mistakes. Whether it is 6 or 8 days it matters. But what really matters is that the Qur’an fails to mention that that the universe is actually 13.72 billion years old and that our Sun and Earth took waaaay more that mere days to create. The Qur’an merely plagiarizes the old Jewish and Christian myths and so if Judaism and Christianity falls, Islam partly does too. God doesn’t hate fags, he hates facts.
For number 14, I have 3 different English translations of the Qur’an and in verses 25:54; 24:45, they all confirm that Allah makes every animal from water. 24:45 – “And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs: and some that walk on four…Allah has power over all things [except consistency]”
25:54 – “It is He Who has created man from water”
Are you telling me all the English translations are wrong? Including the the very popular Yusuf Ali version? So tell me what substitute for water is in your Arabic versions?
Now for number 9, about which came first heaven or Earth, surah 41:9-12 clearly states that Allah created Earth first, then turned to the sky and turned smoke into what becomes the heavens. So please tell me what the exact Arabic versions say in verses 41:9-12. And if you are telling me that the English translations are misguided, or that English cannot accurately communicate Allah’s message, then what does it say about a “universal” religion that is only perfect in one language?
And finally that brings me to number 18 about Noah and the flood story, which I can’t believe you actually believe, but anyway. 21:76 clearly states that Allah “delivered him [Noah] and his family from great distress” and 11:42-4 clearly states that one of Noah’s sons who thought he could seek refuge from the flood waters on a mountain was eventually murdered by Allah (since the flood according to the story was an intentional act) as it states “and the son was among those who were drowned.”
The main problem is that Noah’s flood never happened. It is an old Jewish myth that is not corroborated by any credible scientist anywhere. You seem like an intelligent guy, and I have to seriously ask you, if you honestly believe that one man put two of every animal and insect on a boat while a world-wide flood took place? I mean, seriously. That’s right up there with what crazy fundamentalist Christians believe.
To believe the flood literally took place, as did Adam and Eve and the whole garden of Eden myth, opens the Qur’an and Islam up to some intense scientific and historical scrutiny that makes it far less likely to be taken seriously. It’s silly nonsense like this that prevents skeptics like me from taking your faith with a straight face.
But I applaud you for your response, thanks.
GB:
1. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was an illiterate Prophet & received no form of religious or secular education, which was well-known about him, during his lifetime, among his people, before he even became a Prophet & he never learned how to read or write; and, this is the main actual proof that there’s no way that he could’ve possibly made anything up from the Qur’an, from his own mind.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.7, V.157 & 158)
9. There are many instances where Allah purposely mentions things which were created after other things which existed before them, just to make points, or to elaborate the importance of certain things. For example, Allah created a man before a woman; but there is a verse in the Qur’an that the word woman is mentioned the word man. So, what you’re ststing is actually rather baseless.
13. Again, what I’ve already mentioned before, divine-time is different from finite or infinite time. When Allah says 6-days, or 8-days, we really have no idea as to how long it could’ve really taken Allah to creat the Heavens & Earth. And, again, it doesn’t matter, the point is that Allah is the reason why the Universe exists; so, however long Allah chose to create the Universe, then, that’s just what it is.
14. Yes, I’m definitively saying that those translations are wrong, based exclusively upon my studies of the Qur’an, based upon knowledge of the classic commentaries of the Qur’an & the Arabic-Language.
17. Just because modern-science, which is automatically based exclusively upon biased Evolutionary/Darwinian concepts, doesn’t recognize the legitimacy of the existence of Adam, the Father of Humanity (Peace be upon him), doesn’t mean that he never existed. It just simply means that if you’re not willing to recognize & accept the existence of a divine creator, then, of course, you won’t recognize & accept the fact that the ancestor of alll Humans is another Human, Adam (Peace be upon him), and not primates. Also, by the way, you should know this well: There’s only one reason why Evolutionists/Darwinists claim that Human-life began in Africa, because it’s the Evolutionist/Darwinist belief that Evolutionists/Darwinists believe that peoples of African-descent evolved from Primates to Humans first (i.e. that peoples of African-descent are the lowest on the evolutionary-scale, making them inferior to peoples of Asian & European-descent).
18. Yes, I, as a Muslim, believe in the story of the flood, because Allah says that it took place. Now, in regards to how it happened, how many creatures/animals were taken on-board, upon the Ark, whether or not the flood was a world-wide vs. regional flood, it doesn’t really matter-The flood happened, simply because Allah says that it happened, period.
ME:
Response to Gareth Above:
1. “Proof”? Sorry that just doesn’t cut it. Even if Mohammad never had any religious education, the old testament myths were widely known in Arabia during his time, and some of Mohammad’s friends and relatives were Christian. If you throw a lot of mud at the wall, some of it is going to stick.
9. All your response shows that that the Qur’an is inconsistent because in the English translations, Mohammad is clearly saying Earth was created first.
13. We know divine time from the Qur’an. Allah’s day is either 1000 years (22;47; 32:5) or 50,000 years (70:4). NEITHER of which are long enough to equal 13.7 human years, which is the actual age of the universe. Science wins again.
14. So only in Arabic is the Qur’an perfect. So much for a “universal” religion. Tell me what the correct translation is and cite references please.
17. ALL people evolved from other primates in Africa, not just black people. I’ve noticed a large number of black people unwilling to except this scientific fact either because some are uneducated, or they fear the association with other primates because of racism. I’ve personally traced my genetic lineage to East Africa, which is the real “Garden of Eden” if you will, the cradle of humanity. The first humans were all African for tens of thousands of years. That should unite us all, and not be a source of anger or shame. I am proud of OUR African roots.
18. If you’re willing to believe something merely because it is in a “holy” book, you have just admitted that you’re willing to believe anything on no evidence at all. It’s just like the Christians say “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” What a way to employ critical thinking.
But the larger argument here is the fact that Islam just doesn’t stand up to modern scrutiny, and to the skeptic mind, no twisting of the words will satisfy our quench for truth. If one must cast aside what tried-and-tested modern science says is true in order to be a true Muslim, this will ultimately be the downfall of Islam and all religion, because in the long run, science will always win over faith.
GB:
1. With the exception of the Christian priest, Buhayrah, (May Allah be pleased with him), who is actually recognized as a Muslim, by virtue of the fact that he had recognized the signs of Prophethood on the person of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) & excepted him as a Prophet, before his death, Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn’t have any contact with any Christian priests or academics, until after he received revelation, the only exception being Waraqah, who is actually recognized as a Muslim, because he recognized the signs of Prophethood on the person of Muhammad (Peace be upon him). He first began receiving revelation in Makkah, where there were very few, almost no Jews or Christians. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn’t have concrete contact & dealings with Jews & Christians until he came to Madinah.(ar-Rahiq-ul-Makhtum/The Sealed-Nectar)
9. There are inconsistencies in the Qur’an-Just because you don’t know Arabic doesn’t mean that the Qur’an has flaws, it just means that you’re that ignorant about the Qur’an, in the context of the classic commentaries of the Qur’an & Arabic-Language.
13. You’re just tryin’ to dance around the fact that time is regulated/controlled/determined by Allah. So, since this is the case, time (like everything else is), Allah has the exclusive, divine right to determine, regulate, define time in any capacity & order that He wants.
14. All translations have benefits & setbacks, some more than others-No translation is flawless. As far as “Universal-Religion” goes, just because Arabic is the standard religious language of Islam, relative to the revelation of the Qur’an, doesn’t mean that Islam is just for Arabs. It’s just that the Arabic-Language signifies a linguistic bond, that Muslims around the world share, because it has been chosen as the language that Allah had revealed the Qur’an in.
17. Allah makes it very clear, in numerous places how Humans were created, and guess what? The evolution fable is not one of the ways that Allah tells us that Humans came into existence. Moreover, the fact that Evolutionists/Darwinists are still looking for the “missing-link”, between Primates & Humans proves that Evolution is still a myth in and of itself. I mean, there’s a very important reason why Evolution is still classified as a “scientific-theory”, as opposed to a “scientific-law”.
18. The fact that you still can’t definitively prove, with all of our accomplishments as a Human race, via science/technology, that Humans evolved from Primates (i.e. there’s no tangible standing archaeological proof that Humans evolved from Primates), proves that not only does science not lose over faith, but that Evolution/Darwinism in and of itself is a belief, a faith. You believe in something that is not 100% proven, you’re willing to use your soul as a bargaining-chip, in a gamble, based upon a theory, a belief that still hasn’t been definitively proven.
ME:
Wow this is great, I can go back and forth forever.
1. I am aware of the Islamic tradition of retroactively making non Muslims into Muslims (as is done with Jesus and Abraham etc) but that still does not dispute the fact that Mohammad knew Christians in his time, and Jewish and Christian myths were know to some of the people in 7th century Arabia. So your argument is flawed.
9. What’s more likely: that there is a “perfect” book authored by an all powerful god, and whose only flaws are a result of its translations over the years, or, that there is a man-made book whose flaws are apparent because all humans make mistakes? I’ll go with the latter, thank you.
13. This is very ontological and has little empirical value. To just assert that Allah is in “fact” the manipulator of time, without offering not a shred of evidence, allows you to attribute any characteristic to him. And if you expect me to believe that, then sorry.
If Allah created the universe at some point in the past, then there was a moment when Allah existed alone, before he created the universe. Then there was a moment when Allah exists together with the universe, after he created it. But “before” and “after” only exist when you exist in time. Therefore it is logically impossible for Allah, or anything, to do something in the absence of time. Time is just a measurement between two moments. If Allah created the universe, he had to do it at some time. To be timeless is to be frozen unto all possibilities, because the moment you create a universe, or even will to create a universe, time exists for you.
17. Here is one main problem I have with religion. “My Bible/Qur’an/Torah says this, so I believe it on FAITH.” The “missing link” has been found for numerous transitional species. Have you not read anything about evolution? First, evolution is the absolute standard in science today and it is never going anywhere. Do you honestly think that the entire scientific community is wrong on evolution, or that there is a conspiracy to trick people into thinking it’s true? Evolution is science and science always has critics trying to break it down and no one has destroyed evolution.
How do you explain Homo Erectus, homo heidelbergensis, Homo Habilis, and Homo Neaderthalis? Where do all these species fit into your creation story? These are all transitional species of our genus “homo” all of whom we share common ancestry with.
Intelligent design was put “on trial” so to speak, in Dover Penn, in 2005 and it lost from its lack of this thing called evidence and evolution won due to its overwhelming scientific evidence in the fossil record and in the DNA. I don’t have the space here to teach you evolution but here are some links:
Human Evolution:


Intelligent Design on Trial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R54LGX5_10

Gravity is still a “theory”, Einstein’s relativity is still a “theory”. You obviously ARE as ignorant to science as you claim I am to Islam (which I am not). In scientific terms, when you have a hypothesis, you try to find evidence that contradicts it. If the hypothesis or theory, can withstand many attempts to try to disprove it, it stays a theory, because there is no certitude that one cannot come along and do disprove it (which shows you that science isn’t dogma unlike religion). A theory in scientific terms is something widely understood to be true, because nothing has disproved it. It doesn’t mean that it is a fable. Did you even graduate high school?
From Wikipedia: A scientific theory is “a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.”
18. Darwin is not the god of atheists, but he is a revered figure, to the same degree that Martin Luther King Jr. is in the African American community. Darwin is not worshiped, we don’t submit to him, and he doesn’t command us to “kill the pagans wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush” and “Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people”.
There is no eternal torment waiting for those who disbelieve evolution, our position’s strength relies in the power of our arguments and the evidence from the natural world. We don’t need fear.
Finally I would like to ask you how old you think the universe and Earth and mankind is since you think I and science is wrong. And I don’t want to hear some silly “I don’t know” response. Creationism has so many flaws in it that you must be aware of. For one thing how did we get all the races of people around the world given a common descendence from “Adam” and then with the flood, in a few thousand years if it weren’t for the evolutionary process?
Anyway, thank you for your answers and the time it took you to make them. It is greatly appreciated.
GB:
I’m gonna sum this up really simply: Allah is the Eternal, He is the Lord of the Universe; He created (infinite & finite) time, while not being regulated by time Himself, thus Him being eternal. He created the Universe, and He created everyone & everything which exists within it. Now, you’ve said that you doubt the legitimacy of the Qur’an, while it’s a known fact that the one whom it was revealed to was illiterate & never formally educated, yet had all of this knowledge (about the Universe, Nature, etc.), which no one on Earth had at this particular time. Even if a person were to say, “Okay, I believe in the whole ‘Evolution’ thing; but, it is Allah who caused it to happen.”, you would still disbelieve what this person is saying, because your disbelief in a divine creator has absolutely nothing to do with anything scientific. It only has to do with you wanting an excuse to live your life without any sort of divine regulation, you basically want to worship your own ego & desires, and Atheism/Anti-Theism, as well as Evolution/Darwinsim are your tools, which you use to pursue & entertain this pathology.
ME:
Fine, you’re a Muslim and I’m an Atheist. We will never change our ways. My disbelief in a divine creator has a lot to do with science, as well as logic and philosophy as I mentioned above. The fact that everything supernatural lies beyond what can be confirmed through observation and experiment, forces me to take the default position on such assertions which is disbelief. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And vague passages in “holy” books that are half correct and sometimes completely false just won’t do it. Otherwise, I could just believe in anything on faith: Mormonism/Myths/Vampires/Werewolves/Monsters etc. And that would be naive.
Millions of Christians/Jews/Muslims believe the ‘evolution” thing. All one has to sacrifice to do this, is to believe that some passages are allegorical and not to be taken literal, as fundamentalists often can’t do.
Given the fact that Christians, Jews, Muslims and Atheists will have to coexist for a LONG time, I’m not here necessarily to fight constantly. You have the right to practice your faith and publicly speak about it without fear of penalty, but so do people of all other faiths and those without faith do too. What I stand for is freedom of conscious and of mind and a free and open society is necessary for this. When it comes to governments, I want total separation of religion and state. Religion to me is a private matter, and government should not be endorsing it. Freedom of speech is paramount as well, and nothing should be off the table for debate and critique. You know, I’m offended by a lot of shit I see and hear everyday, but I don’t burning buildings down or condone others who do it the minute my feelings are hurt. And I’m not saying that you are that kind of Muslim, but the Islamic world must grow up and learn to take a little criticism like the rest of us.
If you can agree with this, we all will be able to live better.

END

Summary:

As you can see from debating with a narrow-minded Muslim fanatic, it seems that no amount of evidence brought to their attention will be able to change their mind when it contradicts their dogma, as long as they insist that a "holy" book saying something qualifies as "proof". Muslims like Gareth are not even willing to have a serious rational discussion, if they allow themselves to remain so blinded by dogmatic beliefs. All I can say, is that people like me are needed to hold back the tide of religious conservatives like Gareth who may come from all faiths and are actively trying to proselytize minds their way. If there was a naive non-Muslim and I got a hold of them before someone like Gareth did, they would be much less likely to believe his childish nonsense. And that right there is my life's mission.

Now as we will see from the next debate I have with him, we see the uglier side of the ignorance caused by Islamic dogmatic beliefs when we get into a debate over homosexuality.

3 comments:

  1. do you have an email please I can contact?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Right, I had recently epiphany about Jesus. But I should say anti epiphany...

    when mozis asks the deity his name, the reply is 'I AM'. now Xtians believ that Jesus claim s to be that I AM.

    Therefore necessarily, and ineluctably, intails that it is Jesus who kills all the babies in Egypt; burns children makes parents eat their own children; discrminates against handicapt peopl; etc.we ought to use Jesus when speaking of the God of the OT. As if Jesus is Yahuwah 2.0. As if Jesus is wating in the wings, face palmd....whilst daddy is plaguing away...



    Another thing: 'He came in the form of...' having the bodily nature of...'

    You'd be fogivn for thinking this is the famus Philippians hymn about Jesus. But this is about another incarnation litl discust: the incarnation of the holy ghost as a bird: 100% God ; 100 bird. what ever happend to that?







    ReplyDelete

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